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 Crotalus sp./hybrids

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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Crotalus sp./hybrids   Wed 24 Feb - 23:16

@Niko
As i alreday mentioned, it isn't welcome here to talk about single persons, their reputation and their seriousness - that could easily end up in confliccts and fightings - what isn't in accordance with our philosophy of a friendly forum here.
As a mod and co-responsible for a gentle style in our discussions, i would also prevent opposite (negative) postings of unsatisfied customers - which can be found too in every dealers clientele.

@Anze
Thank's for your post - i knew about natural hybrids between basiliscus and molossus - i didn't know about those between molossus and totonacus - as i did not read everything written by CAMPBELL & LAMAR Sad
These interesting facts won't help us to enlighten the dark, as it's never been contradicted these rattlers to be hybrids - they're just adding one more possibility.

These snakes, from "somewhere in Mexico", could be (every of these possibilities already stated here)

-Crotalus molossus X Crotalus basiliscus (or vice versa)
-Crotalus molossus X Crotalus totonacus (or vice versa)
-Crotalus totonacus X Crotalus durissus ssp. (or vice versa
-or some other combination which hasn't been statet here.

If these rattlers have been wild caught, we can eliminate the latter combination, as the northernmost range of durissus is far away from "totonacus-country" - also simus wouldn't make sense, as these species are geographically separated.
The staus "wild caught" isn't without doubt in my opinion anyway, due to the fact that Mexico has been almost complete closed for exports for a long time. Why should someone take risks in illegal exports (just a hypothesis - no accusation!) or use a hard to get (and expensive) permit for large, unidentified (and therefore not that expensive) Rattlesnakes?
Beside this, the status "wild caught" can be verified completely only by self- capturing - as soon as i have to trust someone else, insecurity more or less takes place.

Altogether, nothing more is verfied than these specimens to be rattlesnakes with a genetic background of (propably more than one) large mexican species.

Is the „right“ to use the qualifying abbreviation „cf.“ In combination with „totonacus“ given or – at least, does it make sense to use it?

I would say no.

Due to each of the following reasons, dealing with nomenclature abbreviations like cf. in cases like this is baseless, arbitrarily and unserious.

Hybrids do not have taxonomical status and scientific names (except those of the parents, if known) in combination.

Every other combination than "cf. totonacus", like "cf. basiliscus" or "cf. molossus" would be possible and senseful or senseless on the same level, all the more the breeder himself favores the possibility of basiliscus X molossus.

The phaenotypic appearance of the F1 specimens is far away from beeing more or less uniformly (as we all can see in the www), in consequence, the more basiliscus-like specimens (like Nikos bigger one) should be named "cf.basiliscus"? Very Happy

The ICZN doesn't rule the different qualifying abbreviations used in open nomenclature, but the standing of cf. (collectio formarum) prohibits its use in a hybrid muddle like this.


After all, in my eyes there's nothing left then commercial purposes for this kind of "nomenclature".
To go even further, activities to defend this denomination are pretty interesting and
could lead one to the assumption, that more than stated is known about the "genesis" of these hybrids........

for those interested - paper discussing the status and use of qualifying abbreviations - thanks to Wulf SCHLEIP:
http://palaeontology.palass-pubs.org/pdf/Vol%2031/Pages%20223-227.pdf

Best regards
Peter

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Last edited by Peter Zürcher on Thu 25 Feb - 17:06; edited 2 times in total
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Israel M. Sánchez
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PostSubject: Re: Crotalus sp./hybrids   Wed 24 Feb - 23:28

Yes, using the 'cf.' on a hybrid is not correct from a taxonomical point of view. As stated before, hybrids are named with a combination of the parental names. Probably it is a misunderstanding of the meaning of that taxonomical term.

Regards
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aristarxos politis
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PostSubject: Re: Crotalus sp./hybrids   Thu 25 Feb - 8:23

Hello,I talked with Georg it was clearly a misundrestanding between us due to the big quantity and the many different animals a bought from him...Greetings Aris
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PostSubject: Re: Crotalus sp./hybrids   Fri 26 Feb - 16:15

Good morning gentlemen,

...I finally could reach georg and we had a quiet interesting discussion
about the nomination Crotalus cf. totonacus and Crotalus sp.

He showed me some pictures of juveniles that could be really C. totonacus at first sight and told me as well that it is probbably just resembling these species(and that the pholidoic data already proves that it must be something else- Crotalus for sure(;-), Peter!!!). He neither wanted to create a new species(Sp. nov.) iritating others.

By the way:
Who would swap a pair Atheris chloroechis for a pair of C. totonacus!!! Probably only an idiot!!! In fact that is georg not for sure.:-):-)

@Peter

Georg told me that he is a bit disappointed that this discussion, and in some Participators personally that this discussion happend behind his back.
But his feedback will be personally and directly for sure.

Long discussions short sense: we decided to leave the nomination Crotalus sp.(also recommended by Dr Israel Sanchez) as you find it on www.rattlesnakes.de
The last thing georg said was that other, objective suggestions are welcome.


By the way my: T.albolabris are still graviddddddd
Twisted Evil


Cheers and have a nice day
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Crotalus sp./hybrids   Fri 26 Feb - 17:05

@Niko


You won't understand it, will you?

Quote:
Georg told me that he is a bit disappointed that this discussion, and in some Participators personally that this discussion happend behind his back.


First of all: You have introduced here pictures of hybrids with names not everybody can follow - and from my sight it's been worth and justified, if not even necessary to discuss it. Furthermore it was you bringing the name of the dealer/breader into play, trying to proof things which finally couldn't be proven.
Second: What means "behind his back"? This person was informed about the discussion right from the start - as we are a public board, he could have joined us and done his statements here.


Quote:
But his feedback will be personally and directly for sure.


What should that mean? a threat?
Normal and objective feedbacks would be interesting for others here too.

Why for heaven's sake do i have the impression of having stirred up a hornet's nest? Shocked

Actually, i'm online here just as a normal user - exchanging knowledge and experiences with others.
For the first time in two years , i have to moderate threads, delete postings and asking users to discuss on a level not in such a personally manner.

By the way - what's your real name?


After "NIKO KLAUS" has left us on his own decision, the thread is opened again for further discussion - if anymore could be said at all......


Peter

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