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Jorg Schenkels
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 267
Age: 24
Location: nijmegen netherlands
Points: 1111
Registration date: 2010-05-31
 | | Subject: canebrake and timber Tue 1 Jun - 15:49 | |
| hi all here some pics of my favorite sp of all the ratlesnake"s 1.0 crotalus horridus horridus  1.0 crotalus horridus atricaudatus  the females will fallow later.. gr jorg |
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Ari Finsk
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 264
Age: 54
Location: Finland
Points: 1428
Registration date: 2009-04-14
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Tue 1 Jun - 19:13 | |
| Have to say that your Crotalus horridus atricaudatus is really beautiful ... even I´m not a big crot fan, that sp could be a crotalus what I like to have some day. |
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Jon Davidson
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 418
Age: 56
Location: Toronto area, Canada
Points: 1613
Registration date: 2009-02-28
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Tue 1 Jun - 20:19 | |
| Beautiful specimens, Mr. Schenkels. Crotalus horridus is one of my all time favourite snakes, as well. Thanks for posting this. Sincerely, Jon Davidson . |
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Bostjan Kraner
Serpent Chief
Number of posts: 573
Age: 33
Location: Maribor - Slovenia
Points: 1509
Registration date: 2010-03-14
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 2 Jun - 1:50 | |
| Nice snakes, i like the pattern on horridus species. I've heard this two species are not destinct in mtDNA testings and some claim them to be single species? |
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Gustav Eloy
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 480
Age: 25
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Points: 1143
Registration date: 2010-09-09
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Thu 23 Sep - 2:52 | |
| the atricaudatus is really nice colored |
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Stephane Mathieu
Snakekeeper
Number of posts: 40
Age: 38
Location: Europe
Points: 661
Registration date: 2010-09-15
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Thu 23 Sep - 5:34 | |
| Congratulation nice snakes  |
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TJ Giles
Snakekeeper
Number of posts: 62
Age: 24
Location: us
Points: 683
Registration date: 2010-09-25
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 3:05 | |
| Beautiful canebreak  |
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Martti Niskanen
Snakekeeper
Number of posts: 70
Age: 33
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Points: 934
Registration date: 2010-02-19
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 14:37 | |
| | Bostjan Kraner wrote: | | I've heard this two species are not destinct in mtDNA testings and some claim them to be single species? |
It is a single species.
Regarding the subspecies, here's a good case for the validity of ssp. in C. horridus: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/225
Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154. |
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Jon Davidson
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 418
Age: 56
Location: Toronto area, Canada
Points: 1613
Registration date: 2009-02-28
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 21:00 | |
| | Martti Niskanen wrote: |
It is a single species.
Regarding the subspecies, here's a good case for the validity of ssp. in C. horridus: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/225
Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154. |
I'm not convinced that this question can be answered so emphatically. The Clark, et al, essay is careful to note the distinction of the northern and western populations and makes mention of the 'distinct population segments' of Crotalus horridus based on mtDNA data in the article abstract. In a more recent essay('Geographic Variation in the Morphology of Crotalus horridus(Serpentes: Viperidae)' by John Allsteadt, Alan Savitzky, C.E. Petersen and D.N. Naik; Herpetological Monographs, # 20. 2006(where 2420 preserved specimens from 38 collections were examined); the distinctness of the northern populations of horridus is acknowledged. That distinctness is also noted in Dr. Allsteadt's original 2003 dissertation(Geographic variation in the morphology of Crotalus horridus(Serpentes: Viperidae). Ph.D Dissertation, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia, U.S.A.). Defining species and subspecies can be a delicate thing( 'subspecies 1: A group of interbreeding natural populations differing taxonomically and with respect to gene pool characteristics, often isolated geographically from other such groups within a biological species q.v. but interbreeding successfully with these groups where their ranges overlap'. Page 288, A Dictionary of Ecology, Evolution and Systematics. Second Edition, 1998. Cambridge University Press). Of course, all data is subject to interpretation, but in my view, one can note the distinctness between molecular evolution and morphological evolution. Sincerely, Jon Davidson . |
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Peter Zürcher
Admin
Number of posts: 928
Age: 60
Location: Carinthia, Austria
Points: 3068
Registration date: 2008-03-06
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 21:21 | |
| | Quote: | | It is a single species. |
It really is, no doubt. 
_________________
Cobras - breathtaking beauties!
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Jon Davidson
Snakemaster
Number of posts: 418
Age: 56
Location: Toronto area, Canada
Points: 1613
Registration date: 2009-02-28
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 21:52 | |
| | Peter Zürcher wrote: | | Quote: | | It is a single species. |
It really is, no doubt. |
I'm inclined to agree, despite the apparent distinctness of individual populations. Sincerely, Jon Davidson . |
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Aaron Percy
Newbie
Number of posts: 39
Age: 24
Location: Melbourne - Australia
Points: 660
Registration date: 2010-09-16
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 21:59 | |
| Great photo's. I love these guys and wish i could keep them. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 23:35 | |
| nice to see my former canebrake's jorg.  |
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Kelly Aarnio
Snakekeeper
Number of posts: 42
Age: 51
Location: Finland
Points: 684
Registration date: 2010-08-30
| | Subject: Re: canebrake and timber Wed 6 Oct - 23:46 | |
| They are bouth nice speciments, and thx for sharing the pics.
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