...Please refer to: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111227/argentina-snakes-on-a-plane-111227 Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

As much as I despise people doing things like this, the true problem is the buyers in Europe and elsewhere that make it profitable for the smugglers to continue.

... and breeders and hobbyist who don´t "dump" them out of their community, peer groups, forums etc. It´s sad to hear that "serious" hobbyist, breeders and pro-herpers enjoy those smugglers company on big reptile shows as nothing hasn´t happened ... as I have been told by several dissapointed "eyewitnesses". Public judging of those smugglers seems to be totally different than doing something to this situation ... or is it ?

Well, there are a lot of hobbyists ('serious' or not) who support the smugglers with their money, that's what we were talking about. But, what do you expect to happen in the big reptile shows? Public execution of smugglers? If the people which organize the shows do nothing about that, we cannot do nothing. Big reptile shows are what they are, and you only need a pair of eyes to see it. And the smugglers, and their business, it is very easy to find them... This is one of the 'tumors' that will likely kill our hobby in no time

Can start with to have only captive born snakes for sale on the shows! I know its impossible to know for non cites animals, but its a step, that the seller guarantees that the animals are CB with a paper.

I think it's both sad and bloody tragic that people in general, both buying and capture animals from nature the only thing people seem to care about who is doing this, it is money, nothing else .. people want obviously that animals should not be in nature at all ... not only is the number of people on the earth increases as we devastate the forest and the animals' homes to build new cities, but we also take animals from the wild back to ourselves in order that the species is rare and can give a good money market if I may say my, I think this is pathetic .. would you care about the animals you love, people would stop trading and keeping wild caught animals.

Actually to hunt/collect from a sustainable stock like other animals for personal keeping would not be a problem so all wc animals are not bad, but to trade with them in high numbers illegaly will never be ok!

the worst thing you can see people offer is WC snakes that are very endangered its so sad that you going mad against this people who do not know better.

[quote="Can start with to have only captive born snakes for sale on the shows! I know its impossible to know for non cites animals, but its a step, that the seller guarantees that the animals are CB with a paper.[/quote]

Mats Jonsson wrote:

Actually to hunt/collect from a sustainable stock like other animals for personal keeping would not be a problem so all wc animals are not bad, but to trade with them in high numbers illegaly will never be ok!

Hahaha! Mats it is funny that you make these statements considering that you are a close friend with the most well know smuggler in Sweden, a person who constantly sell WC animals labeled as CB.

So if the 'large numbers' have a CITES number attached is OK? Despite the many thousand animals dead per year in the large legal imports? Smugglers are a problem, but not the only one...

Magnus ... thanks for that You are the first person who actually SAY something straight ...

Magnus you have not been caught by the customs. But you have bragged bout your trips to greece taking wc greece protected turtles. And bragging how you smuggled greece vipers in camera tripods
And you work at swedish agriculture department?
Yes i know a person who got convicted for having smuggled 10!!!! Snakes wow is that a crime?
Your and Lennarts comments say more about you than about me.
Grow up!

Ari?
What was the straight saying in that ?

Oh the things are going that bad in Sweden? OK personally I don't like many of the rumours etc. I have heard from Sweden in past years, but guys you really need to focus on the hobby and well-being of the animals.
Hope the smugglers get what they deserves and imo all animals from such hobbyist should be taken away..

Thansk from the link Jon, I read little about it from another source some time ago and it really sucks. I don't see the point in this kind of thing. If you really need money that bad why just smuggle drugs instead.

Magnus!
I have heard the same story every time.

And Yes Sami!
Its a couple of people who writes and posts things about people on every forum instead of focusing on the hobby.
Its pathetic i know.
All I wrote in this thread before getting accused, of those people you can see above, they cant approve that people have different oppinions.
reg
Mats

[quote=Yes i know a person who got convicted for having smuggled 10!!!! Snakes wow is that a crime?[/quote]

Mats, yes it is actually a crime to smuggle animals. It is very rare that people are convicted in a court of law for legal actions...

Second, the amount of snakes is maybe not the most important part of the mentioned case. What's more alarming is that one of the involved species is on the IUCN red list (thus considered critically endangered) and another is a CITES appendix II listed species.

Magnus dont be silly!!!
is it a crime to know a person who has a conviction? If you read it again maybe even you can understand it!

If you should dismiss all people who have done something wrong in the past, i bet there would not be any friends to nobody!
I think all people including my self have done things that not are ok!
But if you change and know you did wrong, why should a person be punished for the rest of his life for it?
I can forgive a person who have done bad things.
I also dont se why beeing a friend to a person, I must accept the wrong he has done.
Everybody makes some bad decissions in life, if you dont see that im really sorry and pity you.

I don't know either of you and I'm not having opinions on your friendship, but seriously Mats. Since the past, in this case is being quite recently, you don't think you're being overly dramatic with your talk about being "punished for the rest of your life"?

Forgiveness is a virtue, but this thread is about smuggling of endangered species. I think it's in place to keep the possible repair of a particular smugglers reputation or a discussion about people making "bad decisions" out of this.

Well all I meant was:
If I have a friend who did something wrong in the past, should I discard that friend for a thing he did?
I didnt start this discussion, If you read the thread! I was jumped on as usual by the same people for stating my seeing on wc animals from sustainable stock!
They went off topic and started accusing me, just for knowing a person that I clearly stated that I dont agree with his action, wich he also know, I have never defended his action and i will never do. So just magmus and lelle cant stay on topic is not my fault.
reg
Mats

A couple of books that might be of possible interest on this subject: 'The Lizard King: True Crimes and Passions of the World's Greatest Reptile Smugglers', by Bryan Christy, 2008; and 'Stolen World: A Tale of Reptiles, Smugglers, and Skullduggery', by Jennie Erin Smith, 2011(Please refer to: http://www.amazon.com/Lizard-King-Passions-Greatest-Smugglers/dp/0446699756/ref=sr_1_?s=bo and http://www.amazon.com/Stolen-World-Reptiles-Smugglers-Skullduggery/dp/0307381471/ref=sr_1_1 ). Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I'm currently not very often here in the forum, but the last two discussions, which I've read, have ended up so that we (the members) accuse each other and insist on our own points of view.
Of course, this forum must provide the opportunity to express our own opinions, on a certain interpersonal acceptable level of course, even if it is negative towards others and this is even important if we want to work on the reputation of our hobby, business, commerce, however, but don't we go in some respects a step too far?
I'm just reading and shaking my head ...
Sincerely, Manuel Ebert